norsegirl | The etiquette of child-rearing

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The etiquette of child-rearing

The Ealdormere list has turned into a heated debate of etiquette, courtesy and respect in the current middle ages. While I will admit to being relatively unconcerned about how I'm viewed with respect to those things in the SCA as of late (my friends accept me as I am, and frankly, most of the other participants are annoying or insane so I don't really give a shit what they think), it has got me thinking of those subjects in the modern world... specifically with respect to babies and children. Also I was reading a dining etiquette column that addressed all sorts of stuff and kids came up more than once.

So here's my issue... I like to eat out. It is one of the few things my husband and I can do together that takes him away from his computer screen. I intend to breast-feed my child. I'm not sure how best to go about doing this. Many people insist that you should avoid nicer establishments, but that seems like BS to me. Like I should be reduced to eating at chains and "family dining" places because I happen to have a dinner guest that is eating off-menu. That said, I agree that one should not bring a fussy or crying baby (or child) into any dining establishment. Quiet = welcome, fussy = time to go home to bed, no matter what the average price of an entree. Then there's the issue of where and how to feed.

Some people think you should always take it to the restroom. Aside from the issue that most restrooms don't have any seating other than the toilet, and some establishments are so small that the restroom is a single-stalled affair, which if you were in there would prevent other patrons from actually using the facility, there's also the issue that this is still a human being. We don't expect anyone else to take their meal in the toilet, so why must a baby? Then there's the issue of my food getting cold at the table while I wait for my baby to eat. That seems a little less than ideal.

Others insist that anywhere is alright as long as you cover up. Again, I'm not sure I'm comfortable with this. No other patrons in the restaurant are being presented with a blanket to put over their heads while they eat when their dinner arrives. I can see this being a good thing in say January in Ontario where it might help to prevent chills. But I'm scheduled to deliver in August in Texas. The thought of smothering my little one under a blanket isn't exactly appealing.

Others think it is okay if you are in a booth in the back corner of the restaurant where no other patrons can see you, but also insist that it is in poor taste and insulting to your dinner companions. I like this booth idea, but I also understand that it may mean waiting ages for a table, and some restaurants just don't have any booths in them, or not any that are high enough to provide any kind of privacy anyway. And how would you feel if you were out to dinner with me and I decided to feed my child?

On the particular dining page where I was reading a debate on this subject, a large number of people were of the opinion that either the baby should NEVER be brought out in public and should be left with a babysitter for the few hours it takes to go to a restaurant. Or that public, restaurant feeding should always be done from a bottle, out of courtesy to the other patrons. Should the potential discomfort of strangers that have not discovered the marvelous ability to avert their eyes trump my desire to not bottle feed my baby and not fork out for and locate on short notice a babysitter for a spontaneous (as most of my dining experiences are) meal out? Is my labeling all these people "strangers" and thus reducing them through my language to unimportant my way of rationalizing bad behaviour? Or is society's demands that babies be treated differently than other humans when they eat and the breast always be identified as obscene really unreasonable? Is saying "if you don't like it, don't look" a childish response to their discomfort?

All these considerations also apply to other public situations I may find myself in... out at the park, the mall or on the beach. If I was at a private party at someone's house I would probably ask if there was a quiet room I could retire to. At somewhere intensely kid-centric like Disney World I'm sure they have facilities for this sort of thing. But there just isn't that much privacy in most public places. And even if you can get to an isolated spot, it may not be safe to do so.

Does anyone out there have any thoughts on this?

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To be quite honest I am in two minds about this. If I am at a nice establishment, I pay for the ambience and the experience. I would have no objections to having children there but if the baby cries or plays rambunctiously, really they should not be there. Same goes for rampaging 6 year olds too.

I agree that kids need to experience these things but if they misbehave they should leave.

If I go to a family establishment, I expect these disruptions so I don't mind as much.

Of course this is not on topic with breast feeding. But don't babies cry to let you know they are hungry?

I think it all depends on how your baby deals with disruptions while feeding. Maybe you'll need a blanket to keep him/her focused on the task at hand. You'll probably be on a feeding schedule and will be able to plan where to be for a feeding anyways.

Just some random thoughts - I love kids and in my home you can flash your boobs at me all your want!

again... maybe Em shoudl be fielding this, but I am the one avoifing real work on friday afternoon.

She is right about the blanket to stop distractions. This is not an issue with Morgana but I have heard tell of some babies that stop feeding to look at people as they pass by. Not really a problem except that it can turn a 10 min feed into a 1/2 hour struggle.

And about that feeding schedule thing... I guess it works for some, but I am of the mind that when a baby want to eat, a baby should eat. Happily Em also feels that way and feeds on demand.

Do your own thing though, take all the advise, and then walk on your own path.

Wise words. I'm avoiding work too!

I have lots of scars on my breasts so I would be very self conscious anyways.

Edited 2009-02-20 20:55 (UTC)

I hadn't thought about the distraction thing. Thanks for a voice of experience.

You guys are the first people I've known to have a kid other than one Catholic friend and her prudish husband who three children later is still not comfortable seeing her feed, and who is already feeding her child small pieces of solid food at 6 months. No one in my family has had kids since my youngest cousin, and he's mid-20s now. So it's nice to have someone to bounce ideas with that seems to share a similar mindset.

Of course this is not on topic with breast feeding. But don't babies cry to let you know they are hungry?

I always thought so too, but I'm getting the impression that they can be more subtle than that if the parent is good at paying attention to smaller cues. We'll have to see and I'll let you know.

I figured boob-flashing would be okay in your home. After all, how else are you going to count nipples? And sorry to disappoint, but I only have the standard 2. ;)

But the baby will have some too - makes the game way more exciting!

I am sure Em can give you a much more in depth answer to this, but breifly...

We take Morgana everywhere, from Tim Hortons to the Fancey Digs the parents want to treat us to. Em feeds her pretty much anywhere, without covering up. If the _establishment_ has a problem (and to date none have) I am sure she would cover up. If a patron had a problem, as far I am concerend they can stick it up their !@# (Em might have a different view on this one :-) )

Once in awhile she has gotten extra fussy while we were out, one of us picks her up, goes to the washrooms, or the lobby and sooths her until she is ready to return to the table. In most places a baby cannot over power the ambient noise + whatever music is playing. If we were completely unable to calm her, we probably would leave, but so far this has not happened.

Each kid will be different, you will know yours, and you will know how to deal with hir. You will also know what your comfort level is, I suggest using it as your guide rather then anyone else idea of what is socially acceptable.

Use a babysiter not becaues you are affraid that you can't take your lovely bub out into the world, but because once in awhile you will need to go out as a couple and acctually focus %100 on each other.

Agreed 100%

Babies (newborns esp.) have tiny tummies, and need to feed frequently, and that's before you consider comfort nursing. Breastfeeding is optimal for nutrition+ and comes in a convenient package! You never have to worry about running low, sterilize equipment or check the temperature :)

Little babies also require a lot of sleep (often just after nursing!), and can be surprisingly portable. Add in a sling or stroller (some comfy place to sleep) and pretty much any restaurant or pub is just fine as far as the infant is concerned. (Ok, maybe not one with a live band, but otherwise...)

I personally refuse to go away to feed my baby, and do not use a cover++. I am not a "discreet" breastfeeder, but I try not to be flamboyant either; just natural. Baby is hungry, I feed her.

I do wear nursing shirts often, which provide better coverage than t-shirts, mostly because I don't like exposing my post-baby tummy! A lot of clothing choices can help you be less conspicuous while nursing, and they're generally ones that make nursing easier, too.

As far as crying is concerned (much of which can be controlled with nursing!), I try to think again in terms of the baby, not other people. If she's really upset, am I honouring her needs to let her cry while I finish a meal? I let this guide me when I'm out.

+Not to get down on those who *can't* breastfeed or need to supplement, of course.
++That said, I find that visual connection is important in breastfeeding, so *I* am not as comfortable is covered, either.

What makes a "nursing shirt" different from a t-shirt?

Oh, and depressing news re: The Gap. I don't think they ever had maternity stuff this side of the border. Or at least that was the impression I got when talking to the stunned sales-person earlier this week. So no more nice maternity stuff from a modern, fashionable store. *Sigh.*

Nursing shirts have clever openings that allow breast-access without having to hike up the whole thing. Some are deep v-necks with double panels, others have a second piece of fabric that goes to the mid-line, etc. There are also tank tops with built-in nursing bras. Useful things. Strangely, only maternity shops seem to carry them, though, so selection is limited.

Re: GAP -- try online. I think that the big issue is that they won't ship to Cananda.

They do have maternity stuff in store

However, none of the gap stores in Austin do. Unfortunately, it looks like the closest one to you is in San Antonio. (http://www.gap.com/customerService/storeLocator.do?mlink=5058,1011546,2&clink=1011546)

There are two Old Navy stores in the Austin area with Maternity sections, in bee cave and round rock. (http://oldnavy.gap.com/customerService/storeLocator.do)

Thank you oh guru of internet wisdom. Did I mention the baby-brain thing? I sit and stare at the internet now and feel like a dizzy, blindfolded, 5 year old trying to find the pinata while the universe laughs at me like a bunch of cake and kool-aid fueled party guests.

I guess I'm driving to San Antonio this weekend maybe. Though I might hit Old Navy before I go just in case. I have yet to find anything in Old Navy that fit normal-me, so I'm not holding my breath that their maternity line will be any more accommodating to things like hips and bums.

Also, I like "hir" that is much better than the "it" I have been using to date. Well, better in writing anyway. Not sure it would come out well in speech.

Good call on the babysitter thing too, but I think that's going to be a little later into the process.

I'm not a mother, but I figured I'd chime in as well since opinions from non-parents are probably more important in some ways (since they seem to be the ones who cause the fuss all the time about this issue). I may be a bit more laid back about it, but unless one is walking around completely uncovered with no kid latched on, I've never had a problem with women breastfeeding in a public place. I've seen plenty of women breastfeed in public without putting a blanket overthemselves but yet still able to keep from flashing people the entire time (which, in Ontario is of course no longer illegal, but people still make a fuss), and I have no problems with them doing so. I find it more disruptive if the mother makes a big deal about covering up- by just simply doing it with no fuss, I really don't notice it happening. :)

Thanks for your thoughts. And well said about making a fuss covering being more disruptive than just getting it over with quietly.

Well, as a not-yet-a-mother....

re: going out -- As I've mentioned, I've been out with friends to a really nice restaurant (low lights and everything!) with their baby along in the stroller. I don't see a problem with it, given that you've stated "fuss and cry = wrap food and go". I'm completely in favour of the bring them along philosophy.

re: breastfeeding in the bathroom - ew. No. You shouldn't have to do it, your baby shouldn't have to do it. Just, no. Unless it's a really high end place that has a separate or near separate lounge with comfy chairs for you to sit in, and even then, it's absolutely your choice whether to take advantage of that.

re: breastfeeding in public - the laws of Texas say that you have the right to breastfeed in any public or private location. There is *no* right to not be offended. ::shrugs:: cover up or take it somewhere else is 100% about your comfort levels.

That said, my hip urban mama friend feeds just before leaving and right away upon returning. But, as duir_sidhe says, if you're an on-demand feeder, that won't necessarily work.

I agree with Dru about the distractability issue. One of my sister's kids was always distracted if there were other people moving about in the room, so the best thing for the child was throw a blanket over or go in the other room. I don't think using a receiving blanket or nursing wrap is at all analogous to an adult patron throwing a blanket over their head while they eat - it is more akin to using a screen to create a private alcove.

However, some mothers (and babies) prefer to keep eye contact while feeding and there are some nursing wraps out there that cater to the preference. In fact there are several different styles to choose from this category.

This conversation actually came up at 12th Night and one rather proper gentleman bashfully offered that he doesn't mind seeing nursing mothers in public, he'd just rather not see an areola. One woman in his canton rather cavelierly pops out her boob and lets it hang there while she arranges the baby. That really bothers him. My sister-in-law on the other hand is very adept at arraning the child and then discretely lifting her shirt and letting the child latch on. I've seen her breastfeed in public frequently and never flash anyone.

I think it's a matter of sensitivity towards those around you.

Again, agreed. I sometimes give a "warning" (from "Oh, it looks like she might be hungry now..." to, "Hey, just so you know, we breastfeed her exclusively"), and try to be speedy about latching. Maybe for me it's the difference between being unashamed while breastfeeding and just being tacky?

it is more akin to using a screen to create a private alcove.

Yes and no. In Ontario that is probably more what it's like. In Texas where the summer heat reaches such a level that no one seems to venture outside other than to run to and from cars, and where the sun is so intense that it peels the paint from your vehicle's hood and roof, it's probably more like eating in a sweat-lodge :)

I have to agree with the gentleman. As much as I support breast-feeding, subtlety is key, not waving your boob around while you sort yourself out is probably a good expectation and easily met.

Agreed. Subtlety is key and finding an approach that is both inobtrusive and suits both you and your baby will be key. Something a lot of people have told me already (and I've observed in my neices and newphew - I have 10 of them now!) is that every child is different.

As for the cover, my sister in law gave me one that is rather like a little cape (more like a dress accessory for the mother) and is much lighter and more breathable than a receiving blanket. It also has a wide, adjustable neckline, so you can maintain eye contact. Of course, it will still be five months until I can see how it works, but that's a few weeks before you, so I might be able to give an advance report ;)

Of course, if no one ventures outside in the summer, I'd assume all the swank places you want to eat would be air conditioned.

Sophia was packed around all kinds of restaurants being breast-fed.

In my experience, I had 1 person 'offended' by my breastfeeding without a cover. And she didn't have the courage to actually say anything to my face, she just muttered loudly enough to be barely audible to my Dad, who was sitting nearest her.

I didn't want to be flashing the universe, but I also wasn't about covering up, no matter how many breastfeeding covers my mother-in-law gave me. I wound up buying a lot of shirts with the criss-cross v-neck front, which makes the breast easy to pop in and out of a bra without flapping your nipple for the universe to see.

So that's my restaurant opinion. I was a semi-militant breastfeeder, and even went as far as to right a nasty letter to a store which offered a 'family restroom' and extoled the virtues of being able to nurse in there when I found nothing but a change table and toilet in it. Ick.

Re: the "family restroom" oh gods that is ick indeed!

and of course, when I said 'right' I meant write. "They" will tell you the placenta brain ends once the baby is born. "They" are lying to you.

Really? Oh shit. I was looking forward to getting back to forming full thoughts and retaining information. So how long will it be until I get to do that? When the kids go off to University I'm guessing?

I think conventional wisdom has it about the time your little darling has children of his/her own - that way grandparent and grandchild can bond over over how silly mom is being ...

I was looking forward to getting back to forming full thoughts and retaining information. So how long will it be until I get to do that?

Probably having real-person sleep helps with thought formation. Ask me later, I'll let you know how it works out... :P

Um, 15 years and I'm still waiting for it to come back. LOL

You adjust and learn to deal with it. :-)

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